Faith Challenges, Abortion, and Casey Kasem
Danny Campbell is good to give me CD's to listen to or books to read. Last week he came in my office and handed me a CD of a sermon by a minister speaking about Heaven.
Jan and I listened to it on the way to Tulsa this weekend, and I want to share a comment this preacher made during his lesson. This is not a direct quote, but pretty close.
"If your faith is not strong enough to cause you to be transformed into living discipleship, then it's probably also not strong enough to save you."
I don't know that I understand everything about that statement, or if I even agree with it.......but I can tell you one thing. I haven't gone too many minutes without thinking about what he said since I heard it. I will be anxious to hear your response to it.
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In my last post I made mention to abortion, and not one person commented in response to what I said......disagreeing or agreeing. Is it that taboo of a topic, or does apathy rule the day?
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On the way home from Tulsa we were listening to the radio and ran across a replay of an "American top 40" with Casey Kasem from May 22, 1976! :) Talk about fun! If somebody had told me that Elvis, Jimmy Dean, and Johnny Cash would have had current hits from that week in 76, I would have lost my house betting they were wrong. Granted, they were hits that may not have made it past the #30 position in the charts, but they did break the top 40. It would be interesting to check and see how high up those songs DID actually make it. But, it was really fun to hear some songs that we had forgotten about. It also made me think about what was on the horizon back then that we weren't aware of........and therefore led me to thinking about what is on the horizon NOW that I am not aware of. What were you doing in May of 1976? Some of you youngsters may not have even been born. Shut-up! :) If anybody can guess what the #1 song was that week in 76, I will send you a free copy of Keith Brenton's new study guide to "Pilgrim Heart" by Darryl Tippens. NO CHEATING! :)
28 Comments:
I was 12... I was hanging out at Underwood ball field with Tammy Irons. We didn't care about - wait, we made a tape of us singing Delta Dawn about that time.
Hmmm... I think I heard this same AT 40 on XM.... I don't guess it would be fair for me to guess. Darn. I want one of those study guides!
Fernando, by ABBA.
(I already got a copy, if I win!)
I would love to have that study guide, too--but I have no idea--I was in grad school studying so hard I didn't listen to pop music.
(Surely, you don't believe the studying hard part!)
I think the short answer to your question about abortions - why we can't stop all of them - is because there will always be people who want them to happen, in order to reduce their own liability/responsibility for what they have done.
Picketing abortion clinics with hateful and gross and condemnatory signage and slogans is probably no more effective than it is Christian. Why not hang out nearby and offer to help bear the costs of bearing a child instead? Or hand out lists of potential parents who have been waiting, praying to adopt for months or even years?
Kudos to Keith for tackling the abortion question...not sure I have the brainpower to comment on it right now, it's been an exhausting day.
I don't think that's a very fair question for those of us that were not alive in 1976! That's okay, though, I don't have the book yet, and I figure the study guide won't do much good without it.
Interesting quote, definitely food for thought. I think I agree with it. After all, what kind of faith is a faith that doesn't move one to action? James says it is a dead one.
Let's see. I was 5 and there is a cassette tape of me telling Bible stories into a small microphone. My favorite part was when I said that David put a rock in his sling and hit the lion in the eye and then he fell dead. Even way back then I was using a different interpretation than most.
Keith, what a beautiful response to the abortion clinic scenario. Now that I can see Jesus doing.
Keith, thanks for your insights concering abortion. I would NEVER advocate the un-Christian approaches that many decide to take, and like I said in my earlier post, prayer is no doubt our most powerful tool. But, I was just wondering why more folks would not even give their two cents concerning this tragedy! My take is that either it's too controversial for them, or they have grown apathetic to it.
Your suggestions as to how we become active in this cause are wonderful. Now DOING it is a different story! :(
Thanks bro!
DU
P.S. You are WAY off on your ABBA guess.
Stairway to Heaven??? It was our senior song and I had just graduated from Wynne High Skule. Go Yellowjackets! Brenton's comments most likely mirror what Jesus would do in addressing the issues of abortion I think. Both sides need lots of love.
KR, considering it was Wynne, I have no doubt the class of 76 was using a song that was 5 years old......."Stairway" was released in 1971. That doesn't even merit a "nice try". Are you sure your senior song wasn't some George Jones drinking ballad?
Stick to Razorback trivia dude.
Or maybe "As the Hog Turns" soap opera. :)
DU
"That's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, I like it, uh-huh, uh-huh"..repeat interminably ad nauseum. (One of the most thought provoking and meaningful songs ever written, by the way.)
DU-"Oh Brother Where Art Thou" should be your theme song right now, (since your short term memory is in Park). I think I WILL stick to Hog Trivia...let me see...the latest I remember might be September of 2006, Arkansas 24 Alabama 23. Since you brought up soaps, why don't we discuss Mike Price-there's a gem; Mike Dubose and the NCAA infractions, I could go on...BROTHER
Disco Duck?
FERNANDO, BY ABBA?!?!
15 minutes of Googling got me that far. How did I do?
(Why am I still awake?!?!? I've officially lost it.)
I'm having a hard time not guessing.....
See, I knew I should have been in bed. Keith had already guessed that. Not only did my Late Night brain let me down, but so has my Google. Sad, sad day.
Drum beat please......the "American
Top 40" #1 song from May 22nd, 1976 was "Silly Love Songs" by Paul McCartney and Wings. But if any of you can't afford the new study guide for "Pilgrim Heart", let me know and I will get it for you.
KR, dude.........again, we are talking about the PRESENT, not the past. You can take the kid out of Wynne, but you can't take the Wynne out of the kid. I'm going to start calling you FYBR (pronounced like FIBER)....Five Years Behind Riley. Dubose and Riley are ancient history. Houston Tex-Mes Nutt is the here and now. So are Gus and Mitch. And Stan. And Frank. Need I go on? We look forward to you making the leap to 2007 soon! :)
DU
P.S. For those of you who don't know the relationship KR and I have, he is like a brother to me.
This is what brothers do! :) He knows I would go to the wall for him.
Because I "Love You Like a Brother" as J.A. would say let me implement a lesson I learned from Jeff Walling at Pepperdine..."I have forgiven you already; let me be the first to stop the fighting; and I will cut you some slack because Jesus did me." :] Later Sonny BG
Abortion. Is it murder? Is aborting a seven week old fetus murder? Does that fetus have a soul?
In my opinion it is unprovable and should be left up to the individual to decide what to do. If we allow the government to step in every time we have a controversial issue then where will the government ever end.
And quite frankly the government is making me rather ill these days.
Like Keith said, if you are concerned about it then get to know the poor women that keep getting pregnant because they sleep around. Help them out. Go to where they are, the worst part of town. Are we scared?
Rather than let the government dictate our lives why don't we just take personal responsibility for our actions.
It's like teaching sex-ed in schools. Why does this happen? Because parents have abdicated their responsibilities to the government.
It's tragic.
I should have guessed; I was right!
One O, I don't ever remember even mentioning the government, nor did anybody else, so I am not sure who you were directing your comments to. I do agree with you about going to individuals and trying to be light and salt to them.
How do you prove ANY human being has a soul?
DU
Dave - You said, "Why can't we stop ALL abortions, except when the mother's life is in danger?" How do you propose to do this without the help of the government? By prayer alone? In your paragraph you mentioned the Holocaust, which took government intervention in order to stop.
It's a given that if you want to eliminate abortions in America the government must be involved. You can't stop abortions unless the government makes it illegal. I'm not sure why anyone had to make a reference to government in order for me to bring it up. I was just taking your question through its logical steps. I’m not sure if you were being sarcastic or confused, but you brought up the idea of eliminating abortions without proposing how that might be done without the intervention of the government. You mentioned prayer. Were you saying we should pray for abortions to be eliminated or should we pray that the teachers would have a ready answer for their students or both? I’m confused. If we pray for the elimination of abortions how do you suppose that might happen? Would God prick the hearts of every woman to make sure that they carry their babies to term? Perhaps, but more than likely some of those people would have a hard heart so the only alternative would be a mandate from the government that abortions are illegal. You confuse me with your abortion posts and with your response to me.
The only other possibility (besides prayer) is for us, Christians, to talk about the alternatives to abortion. And even then, in my experience, I have not seen a Christian force strong enough to prevent every person (Christian or non-Christian) from participating in an activity, whatever that activity may be.
You're right. How do we know we have a soul? As Christians we base that belief on the Bible. Outside of the Bible is there any evidence of a soul? Not unless you consider the difference between man and animals with respect to a sense of being and purpose. With regards to an unborn child, how do we know that a fetus has that sense of being and purpose? How do we know that that fetus is nothing more than a bunch of cells in a host body?
Jeremy Divis
David - I just noticed that you go by David not Dave (as I addressed you in my previous post). No offense intended.
Jeremy
Jeremy, no worries about the Dave or David thingie.....any ole name will do.
Thanks for your input. In your initial comment, you went off on the government as if someone had suggested it was the end-all approach. Ultimatley, yes, the government would most likely play a role in ending the massive numbers of abortions we have in America. But, I don't agree with your statement that "You can't stop abortions unless the government makes it illegal". In fact, even if the government DID make it illegal, people who didn't think it is wrong would go ahead and find a way to do it illegaly....so again, government is NOT the end-all answer. As you mentioned, I believe a big part of eliminating the massive number of abortions is to impact the lives of those we come into contact with, by being Christ to them. Being salt and light in a very dark place, showing them a better way....a way that gives them HOPE! A way that gives them LOVE! And of course, being intentional about praying for a change in the hearts of those considering abortion.
You infered abortion was ok if it couldn't be proven that the little unborn one had a soul.......therefore, following that logic, if you can't prove ANYBODY has a soul, why outlaw ANY murder? If I am wrong about an unborn havind a soul, I won't regret any position I took to save the life of an unborn.
On the other hand, one who takes the position that an unborn fetus is "nothing more than a bunch of cells in a host body" will have much to regret if later they find out they were wrong. Would you agree?
Thanks,
DU
David – Thanks for your patience with me during this conversation.
In my original comments about the government being an “end all approach” I assumed that you were referring to the government when you mentioned ending all abortions and then referencing the Holocaust. We all know what happens when we assume things. So… my apologies. I didn’t mean to go off topic.
I agree with you. Even if the government outlawed abortion there would still be some women (or girls) that took part in back alley abortions. So aside from living a Christian life what do we do? Do we allow abortions so the women that choose to do so can at least have them performed in a sanitary and relatively safe environment? Or do we ban these "sinners" to the alleys?
I'm not necessarily saying a fetus is a bunch of cells without a soul. I don't know.
Women are left with the responsibility to decide for themselves if an abortion is "right or wrong.” They are the ones that will have to answer for their choice. I suppose in some respect men will also be responsible if they did or did not do anything to prevent the abortions from occurring. By preventing I mean taking an interest in these women that are contemplating abortion. For those of us men that have come to the conclusion that we just don't know if an abortion is the murder of a human I can only have hope that the Lord will have mercy on us for our apparent ignorance and unwillingness to mandate that a woman does not have the right to make her own decisions with regards to her pregnancy.
To sum up my stance:
1. I’m not saying abortions are ok because I just don’t know if they are or not. I feel uncomfortable telling someone that they should not partake in an activity that may or may not be a sin. It would have been very easy for the Lord to proclaim that abortions were evil and sinful. But He decided not to do that for whatever reason and therefore I can understand if someone does not believe it to be a sin even if I may disagree with them.
2. Christians have a responsibility to befriend all women that are in positions where they think an abortion is the only way out. Rather than preaching pro-life rhetoric we should be practicing love and compassion (light and salt if you will). We should be reaching out to these women and young people. We should bring them into our homes, feed them, clothe them, and just be there for them. That will go a lot further in eradicating abortions than preaching about how sinful it is from the pulpits and the streets.
3. Rather than preaching about how evil abortions are perhaps we, American Christian society, should start preaching and teaching about the alternatives to abortion. In a compassionate way we are able to plead with these women that we care about them and their unborn baby. We can let them know that we will provide for them and their unborn child if they are without health insurance. At Southwest we have an adoption agency that leases part of the building. There are a lot of things churches and individuals can do to help educate people on the alternatives.
Once again, thanks for your patience and your willingness to talk about this sensitive issue.
Jeremy
I would say the answer to both the questions you presented regarding abortion is "yes."
Most folks I know, even Christians, consider the topic too controversial to discuss.
Many have grown apathetic as well. Your apathy question reminded me of a quote from, of all places, the fiction novel Hannibal by Thomas Harris - "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
It is has been what, 35 years since Roe v. Wade? With little hope for a change in sight. Out of discouragement and/or fatigue many have just given up on this cause.
I'm glad you brought it up though because it is constructive to remind ourselves and our children what abortion really is, that it has not always been the norm, and also to examine what light scripture can shed.
Job 31:15 - "Did not he that made me in the womb make him? And did not one fashion us in the womb?"
Genesis 25:22 - "The children struggled within her." (The Hebrew word for children, BANIM, commonly referred to children after birth.) and 23 - Regarding Jacob and Esau - "The Lord said to her, Two Nations are in thy womb."
Jeremiah 1:5 - "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou came out of the womb I sanctified thee and I ordained thee a prophet."
Luke 1:41-44 - "Brephos", the Greek word for "baby" is used to refer to the unborn John the Baptist who "leaped in her (Elizabeth's) womb" because of the presence of the unborn Christ.
These are a just a few of the biblical references. One could conduct an in-depth study, however, and find no biblical support for the notion that God considers the unborn child to be simply a mass of cells or tissue. To the contrary, He obviously recognizes babes in the womb as individuals, leaders of nations, prophets, etc.
I hope Christians haven't become so complacent, apathetic, or sensitive to political correctness and/or controversy that we won't continue to speak out on the issue.
Perhaps an reversal of Roe V. Wade is not in the cards anytime soon. Perhaps every Christian, like Jeremy, doesn't see the issue in as black and white terms as I do. Maybe we can still take a small step in the right direction. I would certainly hope that all Christians could agree that the heinous, unspeakably cruel and sadistic act of partial birth abortion should be condemned and criminalized. I think that is achievable if enough of us decide to make it an issue - not by picketing with hateful language, but through education, communication with our government representatives and most of all in our prayers. I am personally indicted and embarassed when I think of how long it has been since I lifted up this particular concern to God.
Thomas Paine wrote "Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice." Some matters are of such nature that they must be held inviolately.
Finally, for some in-depth study on this issue and others (especially creationism/evolution), I would recommend the DVDs and books by Ken Ham, available on the website Answers in Genesis.
Sincerely,
Your hardcore rightwing, less diplomatic brother, Bryan
Bryan – I have read the scriptures that you presented and understand your point of view. However, it could be argued that just because the Lord knew us in the womb and prepared us for our task in life it could likewise be argued that He used the aborted babies for a purpose as well.
A very wise and spiritual man by the name of Rus Duncan (who I am sure was pro-life) believed that the Lord allowed things to happen for a reason. We may not understand what those reasons are, but the Lord does and He expects us to respect Him and His decisions.
You claim that if one were to do an exhaustive study of the scriptures then one must conclude that a fetus is a human. Based on what? Your interpretation? What if the Lord willed for a fetus to be aborted so that a woman might fully understand what life truly is? Would you ban that abortion even though the Lord saw fit to allow it to happen?
It is not black and white, in my opinion. The Lord will not allow things to happen if He does not want them too.
Jeremy
Jeremy,
You misrepresented what I wrote. I did not say one must conclude that a fetus is human based on a study of the scriptures. What I did say was that in referring to the unborn, there is no original Biblical language which, when translated into english, equates with terms like fetus, cell mass, tissue, etc. The Bible always refers to the unborn in human terms, not something less. If you are aware of scriptures which lead you to believe otherwise, please share them.
Based on my interpretation? No. Based on the definition of the words in their original language as referenced before.
I wish I knew what God's will is on a lot of issues. I'd be careful before concluding that simply because something is occurring, it must be because God wills it. The Bible is replete with examples of God tolerating things he abhored for a season.
I don't wish to argue with you brother. I would encourage you to read some of Ken Ham's material. To call him a scholar would be an understatement. God go with you. Peace.
Bryan
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