Grace and Forgiveness
I'm not sure I get it. If not, it wouldn't be the first time! I hope some of you can help me out.
What has been communicated to me is that God's grace will cover my individual sins, and I will be forgiven. All because of my Savior, Jesus. Does God's grace cover sins of a corporate nature? I have been taught that it won't. Individual yes, corporate no. Maybe there is not such a creature as "corporate sin"? Can a body of believers make a wrong "group decision".....so wrong that only God's grace could restore their relationship with him? Does the Old Testament show a God who sees both individuals and groups when he deals with his children, the children of Israel?
I believe he did...........therefore he does.
Does it matter? In many ways, I think it absolutely does matter.
10 Comments:
Great question, Davy! I don't know whether there is "corporate sin", but I do know that nations and peoples were blessed or cursed because of their actions toward Israel, so there are "corporate consequences", and I think you can infer that corporate consequences stem from group responsibility, so I guess there may be.
Or is it just individual responsibility and mass individual consequence for being a part of an action or believing a certain way JUST BECAUSE the others in your group do? (Without thinking individually)
Whaddya think? Whatever you decide, I'm with you, buddy.
don
I'm not sure if I understand the question ... Does Daniel 9 help? Daniel prays for his entire exiled nation, asking for forgiveness on their behalf (as a priest might do). God's answer through Gabriel is a prophecy of Christ.
My personal belief is in God's ultimate sovereignty. He extends grace and forgives whomever He pleases.
However, He knows hearts of individuals AND groups perfectly ... and it might be against His nature to forgive some whom we perceive innocent; or to condemn some whom we see as guilty.
Paul persecuted Christians with a clear conscience toward God. But he was dead wrong. Chances are, he wasn't alone in doing it. Yet, he was the one to whom Christ appeared on the road to Damascus ("Saul, Saul ...") and perhaps more important was the one who obeyed.
Noah was righteous, but only he and his family were spared. Lot doesn't seem righteous to us, but he and the obedient members of his family were spared, for the sake of his uncle Abraham's plea.
It may also have something to do with God's relationship with time and eternity, too: can/does He know what choices we will make? all the choices we might make? what our "price" or "breaking point" will be in any given situation/temptation? how much we as individuals are affected by the herd mentality? how much courage we have as individuals to stand against the stampede?
Great comments Keith! I am going to expound on it tomorrow some more, and maybe you will understand more clear where I am going with all of this.
Thanks again bro!
DU
David,
I'm on the way out to dinner, so this won't be long. I'd be happy to talk about this more at length later though!
Two books I would suggest that I have found very useful lately: Joel B Green's "Salvation" in the Biblical Themes series by Chalice Press, and "StormFront: The Good News of God" by the Gospel and Our Culture Network. Both of these books have helped be gain a better understanding of salvation by gaining a greater understanding of the nature of sin. It seems more and more correct to me for me NOT to see sin as primarily trangression against a set of commands. Sin, in these books and in other discussions, is seen more as a condition, a way of life that is contrary to living in the Kingdom. In this sense, and I think I've blogged about it before, salvation becomes so much more than just making sure someone is "on the right side of the line."
Like I said, I'd be more than happy to talk about this more...I just don't think you can talk about sin without talking about the nature of salvation, and vice versa.
~Greg
P.S.: Yeah, I think my bro's a pretty cool kid (I don't know exactly when it happened, cause he certainly wasn't at 10 years old!) and I'm proud of him!
I'm wondering if you and Joe Cook are wired into my brain. This paralles a conversation I had with my mother yesterday. What about the churches in Revelation? There were faithful members found in the midst of unfaithful churches. So I would think it has to go the heart. Grace covers mistakes made as a group as well as individual mistakes if there is a heart of love and a true effort at obedience. Don't you think?
Greg, I concur with your definition of sin. Thanks for the references to the books also. Donna, I always enjoy your comments. I plan on posting some more comments on this topic today sometime. Thanks again for both of your comments.
In HIM,
DU
Great food for thought. I look at it this way. I am an American and love my country. I pledge alegience to the flag and would like to think I would defend it to the bitter end. I respect my leaders and pay the taxes I am told to pay. That being said, I do not want to be held individually responsible for the decisions,(sins) of Bill Clinton or George Bush. I think Don hit it right when he said that corporately we may be blessed or cursed by association, but in the final analysis, I believe we will be saved individually. Good job.
kr
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